Forum:Unban Sinister Serpent?

Ok, this card has been banned for several years now. But is there any chance this card could come back to 1 in the future? I mean, all Sinister Serpent does is return to your hand during your Standby Phase and while it would be good discard or defender fodder, most effects which discard cards from your hand (Snipe Hunter, Gungnir, ect) activate in your Main Phase, not Standby, and not many people run Divine Wrath, Magic Jammer, Lightning Vortex, Dark Core, or Phoenix Wing Wind Blast, ect anyways. On top of all that, destruction by card effects is a lot more common today than by battle. I don't think the little guy would be that harmful if he came back to 1 today. Anyone second this? 24.12.202.163 (talk) 18:25, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Prior to the release of the "Mermail" archetype, I was a strong advocate for this monster to coming back. But at the moment, it makes "Mermail" Deck too powerful. Once limits have been put on some of the cards in that Deck to slow it down, I think SS might be able to come back. But until then, I don't see it coming back. --Golden Key (talk • contribs) 18:31, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure it makes Mermail/Atlanteans notably more powerful? They have to wait a turn to reuse it and it doesn't get any cool effects when discarded... 108.196.206.15 (talk) 01:58, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

Also, "XYZ-Dragon Cannon" can one-shot a card each turn with this card at limited. --iFredCat 02:04, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

I'll be more than happy to run Lightning Vortex @3
Seriously, keep it banned!

70.167.111.220 (talk) 21:04, November 21, 2012 (UTC)AceCloudKicker

Doesn't generate immediate or any advantage in Merlanteans, so pointless to mention them.

Tossing a single copy of this just to use Lightning Vortex, Magic Jammer, ect with no cost is just poor deck building.

And mentioning Xyz Dragon Cannon has no point as a deck running it will never be viable in the meta game.

Card could return to one and have no effect on the game at all.

209.91.107.151 (talk) 07:23, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

The problem with cards like this is that someone always finds a way to use in an obnoxious combo. Then the game degrades into whoever can start their combo first. --Eps01 (talk • contribs) 11:10, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

That's right. This card is a +1 each turn, with no cost. You'll always have a monster to summon, or a card to discard (if you discard it during your Draw/Standby Phase, you'll be able to get it again in that same turn). I don't think it will return. --Missign0 (talk • contribs) 11:38, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

We have much more broken things nowadays than a +1 caused by a weak snakey monster happening every Standby Phase. IMO it could feasibly be Limited without breaking the game, per various reasons listed above. 108.196.206.15 (talk) 21:26, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

Let Sinister Serpent on the list of banned cards. Please no excuses like: "...too slow for the current meta..." or like that. Forget it. Konami knows why he is still banned. Think of new combos with new cards instead of old combos with too old cards... --TheGallisMan (talk • contribs) 01:04, November 27, 2012 (UTC)

I haven't seen anybody dream up any new combos with Sinister Serpent, aside from Atlantean/Mermail discard fodder; even there it doesn't seem gamebreaking, they have enough things to discard that have better reasons to be discarded. 108.196.206.15 (talk) 02:54, November 27, 2012 (UTC)

That's why i say it:"Let Sinister Serpent banned." There's no need for it. --TheGallisMan (talk • contribs) 20:27, November 27, 2012 (UTC)

I can understand that, but I personally advocate keeping the banlist as small as possible; it reflects better on the game in general if fewer cards are absolutely needed to be kept banned. 108.196.206.15 (talk) 22:35, November 27, 2012 (UTC)

But the banned list makes sense. It forces the players to create new decks or strategies. It's not the fault of Konami to ban a lot of cards. The players have all the blame because they misuse the cards for unfair tactics. That's why cards go banned. Of course it is unfortunate when cards are banned and decks are destroyed but this way new meta decks can arise. I prefer the banned list instead of only allowing certain booster series like it's done with Pokèmon. --TheGallisMan (talk • contribs) 01:59, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

Of course, they just released a broken version then realized that they are too borken before made an admit (such as Pot of Greed into Allure of Darkness, Trade-In, etc.) by add a cost or condition to the texts. Serpent was one of the few. --iFredCat 02:08, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

The weaker counterpart of Sinister Serpent is Treeborn Frog. So, the Serpent will never be unbanned.--TheGallisMan (talk • contribs) 21:10, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

You called that frog a weaker counterpart of Sinister Serpent? Nah, Treeborn Frog required no S/T cards on the field (owner's) and is Special Summon onto the field, not to the hand. --iFredCat 21:15, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

The weaker version of "Sinister Serpent" is actualy "Return Zombie". --Missign0 (talk • contribs) 12:26, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

Seemed like Missign got it! Score one for him and zero for you, GallisMan. --iFredCat 13:12, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

Em, in case anyone didn't notice, Return Zombie is basically unusable. How are you supposed to have no cards in your hand during the Standby Phase? (facepalm) :) --Eps01 (talk • contribs) 09:23, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

You have no cards in hand, draw one in your Draw Phase, then your opponent activates "Drop Off", "Drastic Drop Off", "Mind Crush" (and don't miss) or any other similar card. Or if you activate a card that discards for cost during your Standby Phase. --Missign0 (talk • contribs) 13:22, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

He can be useful in Infernity Deck for extra Material to Xyz Monster (Archfiend + this monster). --iFredCat 14:26, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see Sinister Serpent as being that game-breaking in today's metagame. I mean, it's just a 300 atk/200 def reptile that comes to your hand every standby phase, if it's in your graveyard by then (*cough*Macro Cosmos). What's so abusive about that? The only potential abuse I could see coming from the little snake is you could use it with 3 (already set) Beckoning Lights in your standby phase to return a ton of strong light monsters to your hand (JD's, BLS, which I want to get banned anyways, or some Lightray monsters), ect in a chaos lightsworn deck. But that's still a lot to ask for, considering your opponent could MST or Storm your backrow before that happens, not to mention lightsworns aren't topping today anyways, since they require a lot of luck to use. But other than that, how much overall impact would limiting Sinister Serpent have on today's metagame? Next to zero if you ask me. Atlantean Marksman/Heavy Infantry/Dragoons are more abusive and discard-worthy than this card ever will be. I don't see what's so broken about it anymore, and I don't see why limiting it would be a problem in today's meta. The original reason(s) Sinister Serpent was banned, if you see the Forum:Reasons why cards are Forbidden/Limited, is back in the "old" 2005 format, abyss soldier (scroll to that section) could bounce a card once per turn with Serpent. You could also stall your opponent out with the dark door back when destruction by battle was virtually the only way around, assuming your opponent didn't have a piercing card. It would also be a free card to discard for cards like Lightning Vortex, but I don't think that would get out of hand in today's metagame. The metagame has picked up a lot of speed since 7 years ago, and while Sinister Serpent can give you some sort of hand advantage (too much of a hand advantage if it was at 2 or 3), I don't see any broken infinite loops, ect, that you could do with it. It would be fair at 1. --24.12.202.163 (talk) 18:11, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

(Edit Conflict) It has given a lot of optional to be abusing in place of other cards' discard. Like you have to discard him in a place of other card for "Hand Destruction", "Magic Jammer", "XYZ-Dragon Cannon" and it puzzle family, "Graceful Charity" outside Dark World theme, and by the effect of opponent's cards such as "Robbin' Goblin", "Spirit Reaper", etc. Then next turn, it magically returned to your hand - which making your opponent believe that they wasted an effort to keep your hand reducing for nothing? --iFredCat 18:12, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

I feel like if it got unbanned it would see about as much attention as Tsukuyomi. Little after the beginning of the format. Djjomon (talk • contribs) 18:37, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

If there is a consistent, broken hand loop you could do with Sinister Serpent during your Standby Phase in today's metagame I'd be happy to know what it is. I agree it can be used as discard fodder for cards such XYZ dragon cannon, Magic Jammer, and Lightning Vortex, but let's face it; no one runs those cards in today's metagame, and I don't think anyone would run them any more frequently if Sinister Serpent does indeed come back. As an IP above mentioned, it's poor deck building. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how this card can be overly-abused in the current meta. I don't see what's so broken about it anymore. In past formats, Sinister Serpent was OP and could be abused to no end, but most of the cards that abused him back then are either 1)banned now, or 2)the "old loops" just aren't good enough anymore, like they weren't with Tsukuyomi; hence why it was brought back in the September 2012 format. 98.206.70.2 (talk) 22:11, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. I'd be very happy to run discard cards such as divine wrath or lightning vortex with this card even limited (especially the former, as it is reasonably effective against rabbits (mentioned as the first siding option: TCG player article)). Lightning vortex could give too many pluses as well(maybe d-dude heros?). Chewbacca The Drummer (talk • contribs) 14:26, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

The only point I was trying to make is the fact this card isn't that game-breaking anymore. Cards that are banned are only banned because they're badly designed cards that take (almost) no skill to use, and speed the game up too much. I don't believe Sinister Serpent meets that criteria anymore. The card was really broken in the past when the metagame was much slower, but the meta has picked up a lot of speed since Sinister Serpent got banned, and I don't see any significant harm in limiting him to 1. There aren't any consistent, broken combos (that I know of) that you can do with it when it's only at 1. If it was brought up to 2 or 3 that would generate too many advantages and pluses, but limiting it to 1 wouldn't, by any means, break the hell out of today's metagame. I agree Lightning Vortex/Divine Wrath, ect would basically become costless cards, but there are many ways around cards like that (Dark Bribe, Starlight Road, THRIO, Storm, mst's, ect). Although Sinister Serpent could be viewn as broken in certain cases, I personally don't think he absolutely deserves the ban he currently has. In fact, limiting him to 1 in order to make more people run Divine Wrath/Lightning Vortex, ect would be a good way to slow down the metagame, since many decks like to special summon constantly. Giving us an extra answer to meta decks would be quite useful, and would force players to put more skill into building their decks. 98.206.70.2 (talk) 18:18, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

Lets see if I read this that correctly. You're saying that the meta decks now require no skill to make and that if Sinister Serpent was to get unbanned it would just magically add skill to that person's deck. If thats so I can't agree with that at all. The current meta decks do require skill to make even if you don't want to admit it, there are always new varients being played and created that yes do the same as what is being used in tournaments but they do it in a different way. Like Wind-Ups, they require skill to make and use, I made a Wind-Up deck and made it my own mixing in T.G. monsters it does what a pure Wind-Up deck would do, spam Xyz monsters, and it works just as well as a pure Wind-Up deck not just because its a Wind-Up deck. You can't just say that a card should be unbanned even to 1 just because it won't affect the meta, it just might even if you don't see it because somebody else will and they might not be afraid to abuse it. Hastydemon2 (talk • contribs) 21:15, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

Actually 98.206.70.2 you have a point here I think. By adding sinister serpent back at 1, it would bring online divine wrath etc, slowing down the meta, which could be a good thing. Also, it would be necessary to run cards such as foolish burial to make best use of it, adding possible dead draws to any deck using it Chewbacca The Drummer (talk • contribs) 18:03, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

No, what I said was banned cards typically require very little skill to use and they speed up the game too much; i.e. you don't need to be an expert to use a card like Pot of Greed or Graceful Charity. Anyone can abuse it in any way, and they thin your deck by 2 and 3 cards instantly, respectively. There is some skill involved in using Sinister Serpent, since it could get banished and it's effect to return to your hand is kinda slow, happening only in the standby phase of your turn, not to mention it's still hard to draw into at limited. If Serpent does come back, people could opt to run Divine Wrath or Lightning Vortex or other such cards more often, and people would have to think their decks more thoroughly to counter combos like that, such as adding a Starlight Road or THRIO or Dark Bribes. From what I've seen in past formats, Konami wants to keep the game as skill-oriented and as slow as possible. That's the only reason they have a banlist, because if they had no banlist of cards, there would be virtually no skill involved in making any deck, since every deck would be FTK oriented (i.e. super fast) and you wouldn't really need to think anything through while building it (ex. Just put in 3 Pot of Greeds+3 Graceful Charities+3 Trade-In's+3Destiny Draw's+3 Toon Tables+a few level 8 monsters and you have a very happy Exodia deck). But now I believe if Serpent comes back, instead of breaking the game, he'll probrably make the game even more skill-oriented than before, and since the meta decks are pretty fast, if people run Divine Wrath or Lightning Vortex, it would slow the meta down a notch, which would definitely be helpful. 98.206.70.2 (talk) 20:08, December 18, 2012 (UTC)